On the eve of Fair Game’s Conference Anstiss takes time to talk all things women
Campbell Tickell partner Radojka Miljevic goes head-to-head with
Sue Anstiss MBE, the CEO of Fearless Women
“What does it mean when young women and girls don’t get mentioned, or are somehow seen as ‘less than’ men in how they are depicted? It makes us as women feel we are second-class citizens”
Sue Anstiss MBE, author of Game On
TO MARK International Women’s Day and Fair Game’s conference on women’s football, I caught up with Sue Anstiss, the author of an inspiring examination and celebration of women in sport, Game On: The Unstoppable Rise of Women’s Sport.
Sue is someone whose life-long love of sport is infectious, reflected in her career in sports marketing and sponsorship, but also in a range of initiatives that she commits to, including her podcast The Game Changers (on women who break down barriers and battle for equality, and the network for women who work in sport she founded (with Kate Hannon), the Women’s Sport Collective, of which I’m a member.
Sue and I first met in the world of Active Partnerships (a network of local partnerships aimed at getting people active) and then again most recently at Lewes Football Club. We caught up one morning to mull over women in sport, and most particularly in football.
1. Why does women’s sport matter?
Sport is a source of joy in physical movement, and everyone deserves to have that in their lives. But there’s also the question of equality and parity: women should have fair access to sport and to all that comes with playing at the highest level, including decent financial contracts and the same level of support as men.
More broadly, it’s about what we communicate to wider society about women’s place and positioning. Sport touches so many spheres – we can even see in recent days its place in the political sphere, underlining that it signals something to us all.
What does it mean when young women and girls don’t get mentioned, or are somehow seen as ‘less than’ men in how they are depicted? It makes us as women feel we are second-class citizens. I grew up with three brothers, but the sports I was most interested in were equally open to me – swimming, athletics, and later netball – so I didn’t particularly see any injustice. Even in my early sports marketing career with Gatorade I didn’t particularly question the sponsorship deals that were primarily in men’s sport and not women’s. Writing the book made me look back at my own history and reflect on what I hadn’t seen at the time.
I now see so clearly how women’s sport has been belittled in society and my concern is that this portrayal ripples out across society, and into other misogynistic behaviour, sexism and ultimately violence against women and girls.
2. How do you see the key gains for women’s sport in recent years?
Funding/money, as with many things in life, is having the biggest impact!
External money coming into women’s sport, via sponsorship from big brands like Barclays and Vitality, makes a huge difference. The media coverage for women’s sport from broadcasters like the BBC and Sky has also been momentous. Sky have done brilliant things for cricket and netball over the past 30 years, and they have invested and created a quality product. Sometimes there is a danger in streaming content if the attention to quality is missing – particularly in sport where the analysis and camera angles make such a difference.
Having free to air coverage on BBC coverage for the FA Women’s Super League (WSL) takes it to a completely new audience and we’re seeing the huge impact of this with recent research from the Women’s Sport Trust.
More sports governing bodies agreeing that we should be paying women as professionals has helped women to realise their talent and skills, and attract an audience.
I think the gains are also about a change in society. We’ve come to a realisation around equality and social justice, and we won’t put up with the status quo anymore.
3. Tell me about the voices and stories we should all know more about…
There are so many - I feel there is probably another book in there!
There is the story of Constance Applebee who in 1901 went from England to Harvard College to study and was shocked to discover physical activity and sport for young women included little more than musical chairs and ‘drop the handkerchief’. Constance became a champion for field hockey, spreading the word across US colleges. She reminds us that women have been fighting the battle for equality for over 100 years. Their stories haven’t been told – they did have an impact and they caused a shift, not just in men’s attitudes but also in what women thought possible. The view at the time was that women should be frail and weak and feminine. How must women like Constance have had to fight to be different to others around them? They are women to be more celebrated!
It’s been a wonderful privilege in my podcast, The Game Changers, to amplify the voices of women who have been trailblazers, who change things for the women who follow and have a real impact for them.
4. What do you say to people who think there isn’t an audience for women’s football?
They need to remember that at the time of the First World War women had to take up traditional men’s work and that gave them time to play sport. This developed into football matches in large stadiums, which were hugely popular and there were over 150 teams across the country.
On Boxing Day 1920, 53,000 people were inside Everton’s Goodison Park stadium to watch Dick Kerr Ladies and St Helens Ladies play, and another 14,000 had to wait outside. Let’s also not forget that there were women playing rugby and cricket in the 1800s – women were always there and wanted to play these sports. There were men encouraging women to play and allowing them.
On 5 December 1921 the Football Association banned women’s football because of its lack of suitability for women (they were seen as too frail and weak) and because they were getting paid. There was a desire to expand the leagues for men when they came back from the war. This ban spread across the world.
Even now, we still haven’t got away from this view of what is suitable for ‘frail and weak’ women to do, whether that’s shorter matches or shorter distances. The ban was in place for 50 years. Even at the time of my birth, women were still banned from playing in FA grounds!
Just imagine all that lost time - all that investment, structures and the rewards when football was becoming hugely commercial. It’s not just about equality and parity, it’s about equity.
A huge boost is needed and there will never be quite the opportunity to catch up. And there is so much still to do around the practical experience of the sport for girls playing today; just think about what we see in school and who’s playing football in playgrounds around the country. This then moves into the clubs, whether there is equality in terms of access to female coaches, the best pitches, changing rooms, etc.
5. We know men’s football has a poor financial model. What about the women’s game?
Will the women’s game be as profitable as the men’s, and do we even really want that? Is it about the sustainability and model you can enjoy without it having to be worth huge sums of money for those who own and manage the sport?
I believe women’s football should aspire to be a better version than men’s. Can it reinvent itself? As women’s team align themselves to men’s teams (nearly every team in the WSL is aligned to a men’s team, and it’s looking much the same in the Rugby Football Union’s Premier 15s). Does it just mean that we fall into the same model perhaps unthinkingly? Is there a different moral compass for women’s sport? Does it have to be subsumed into male ways of doing things?
So much of men’s sport – men’s football – is tied up with tribalism and hostility and through that we see the ugliest side of fan behaviour, including racism, homophobia and misogyny.
I love sport and the competitive element of supporting a team, but I don’t enjoy the vitriol and tribalism.
Perhaps it’s an unrealistic Utopia I hope for, but let’s at least have the ambition to be better.
I’ve been asked if more investment from betting companies would be good for the growth of women’s sport. I hope we don’t need to follow that path.
We are trying to do things differently at Lewes FC. I was first attracted to the club when I learnt about their commitment to gender equality. They invest equally in their men and women’s teams, which is not just the right thing to do, but has already had a positive return with the gates having increased, more sponsors and increased ownership (the club is 100% fan owned).
It’s wonderful to see these ethics have turned out to be good business. Even though it’s tough in terms of some traditional football sponsors, we have taken an anti-gambling stance. That’s very inspiring. But having said all that, we still need to win games because the more success we have the higher the profile of the club and the more impact we can have on the world of football and beyond.
I believe we could take a broader view of women’s football and sport and learn from what’s working in other sports and in other regions.
6. So what would you do with your magic wand if you were granted your wishes?
It’s really about more investment.
Brands are waking up and seeing the impact of women’s sport and how it also aligns with social change and can make a real difference. Visibility and spectator numbers matter, but we need the right quality of coverage and consistent visibility. Elite sport is entertainment after all, and that means getting the right product in the right places.
Radojka Miljevic, Partner at Campbell Tickell, is chairing the Equality and Financial Sustainability session at Fair Game’s conference on 8 March, as well as taking part in the workshop on Women in the Boardroom. Here, she discusses more widely women’s sport, and particularly football, with Sue Anstiss MBE, CEO, Fearless Women Ltd.
Tickets are still available for the conference https://www.fairgameuk.org/iwd.
Resources:
How a Scottish footballer won the World Cup with Italy
Bringing diversity of thought and gender reform to FIFA
Inspiring the ‘missed generation’ of women’s football
Find out about the Women’s Sport Collective and Sue Anstiss, her book and podcast
Insights from Campbell Tickell
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